Pat Cash: Creating a Personal Brand.

Pat Cash won Wimbledon in 1987. He also smashed rackets, slammed doors, and thought the first sports psychologist he ever met was going to throw him in a padded cell. Behind the drama (and the checkered headband), Cash was a natural sports marketer who knew how to win the game, and the hearts of fans.

Guest: Pat Cash, 1987 Wimbledon Champion, Australian Open Finalist (1987, 1988), Davis Cup winner with Australia (1983, 1986)

Host: Brigette McGuire, Monash Business School

© 2026 Monash Business School

Produced by Miniature

Transcript

Brigette McGuire 0:02

Sport is an emotional experience. Whether you're in the arena or watching your favorite player square off against their fiercest rival, the game triggers something deeply human within us as fans, doesn't it? Our heart rate quickens as we feel the sensation of the hairs standing on the back of our neck. Will they win or will they live to fight another day? And while sport is full of emotion and drama, these days it's also data-driven and deeply commercial. In Australia alone, sport generates more than $50 billion a year. Every decision made behind the scenes now shapes how fans watch, feel, and connect with the game. And how fans connect with the game in turn can impact how their favourite athletes perform and how their brands are managed. Welcome to Love the Fan, win the game. Each episode, this podcast goes inside those decisions. We speak with leaders who are redefining sponsorship, fan engagement, and the social impact of sport in a multi-billion dollar industry. My guest today is a legend of Australian sport, a Wimbledon champion in 1987, two-time Davis Cup hero and two-time Australian Open Finalist, who reached a career high number four on the ATP World Rankings. Pat Cash is a tennis champion. Pat is renowned for his tenacious serve and volley game style, his trademark black and white checker headband, and famously inventing the tradition of climbing into the stands to celebrate victory with his team, cementing his status as a major cultural figure in Australia in the late 1980s. Pat's story is also one of incredible resilience, overcoming multiple back, knee, an Achilles injury, and even a burst appendix on the eve of a Wimbledon quarterfinals run in 1986. His determination to return to the court in his best possible shape after each setback was second to none. Pat has inspired generations to play tennis and just as many to support charities and causes close to his heart. Seemingly in a blink of an eye. These questions include how do I manage the pressure of expectation of fans and media whilst maximising the commercial opportunity? How do I separate my personal life from my professional brand to enjoy the journey? How do I know which sponsor brands to align with? Pat Cash, welcome.

Pat Cash 3:24

Thank you very much, Bridge. That was a pretty good introduction.

Brigette McGuire 3:27

You happy with that? Yeah.

Pat Cash 3:28

We're up to the first time. I burst my appendix, but I had an infected appendix. But other than that, perfect. Close enough.

Brigette McGuire 3:34

Excellent, excellent. Well, it sounded painful. It was.

Pat Cash 3:37

It was painful. I had a yeah emergency appendix surgery.

Brigette McGuire 3:40

So very impressive to make the quarterfinal straight after that occurring. And that is really goes to your incredible resilience, Pat, and responding to setbacks. But let's set the scene. So you're 21 at this at this stage. You've been a prodigy. You've you've come from Melbourne, you know, you've quickly gone through the ranks. We'll talk a little bit about that as as we move forward in our conversation here. You know, you've hit the hit the global junior tour, you're winning global grand slams, you've emerged onto the the men's tour. And by 21, you're a father at this stage as well.

Pat Cash 4:14

Yeah, that was an interesting summer. Appendix tennis and baby.

Brigette McGuire 4:19

On your 21st birthday. That was a big birthday. And then you you become quarter finalists, and and then you have that that light, bold moment that I'm not far away here from actually being the best in the world on on that day in July, if I can get what I need to do in place. And so you really, for me, and you know, I speak to executives and students here at Monash Business School, they have that high performance mindset. They're wanting to understand what do I need to put in place for me to bring my best performance to the workplace, whatever that looks like. But it wasn't only so sports science, you really went down that path with Dr. Ann Ann Quinn, who is renowned within sport and particularly tennis circles. But you also looked at the other facets of what makes a high performance athlete. So that's the physical, technical, and tactical. You had the legendary Barkers here and Barclay there. You know, as you long time, you know, from childhood, uh, your coach. But I'm also very interested in the sport psychology as well, Pat, which um, you know, you talked about, you know, you're such a tenacious, you played tennis like a footballer that you you are as well. That was your your background, so determined. So tell us a little bit about putting in place what you needed to do. So that's in 1986, you're 21. Yeah, and then 12 months later you become Wimbledon champion.

Pat Cash 5:43

Yeah, um, I can't remember exactly when it was, but my my tennis career is my business. It's I I'm the CEO of this corporation called Pat Cash Tennis Player. Um, I bring in the consultants to make me a better person. I that's at the time, look reflecting on that, that's that's what it was. At the time, it was hey, my coach is just helping me become a good tennis player. Um, to be the best, I needed consultants to bring in. Ann Quinn was one of them, one of the missing links. You know, at some stage, and I believe this you need to do this at least twice a year, is to have a good look in the mirror and go, where am I? What am I doing right? What am I doing wrong? How I behaved, how can I behave better? You know, if you have an argument or you you you know, you whatever it happens to be and you misbehave or you get upset about something, okay, where what went wrong there, or you know, was it valid that I got upset or whatever? And you have a look good look at yourself in the mirror, and I'm not saying it's and I say progress, not perfection, uh, and that's the thing. How can I get better? I'm not gonna be perfect, who's perfect? Are you gonna screw up? Of course you're gonna screw up. Um, but how can I be better? So the missing link and the puzzle was uh psychology, and I remember very clearly I didn't come up with the idea. Uh I came home living in in North Ringwood, Donvale, there, and had the house, the house, family house there, and I was lucky enough, my my father was a lawyer, my man slash my manager in Barkley was there, David Zucker was my physio, he was the Olympic physio, he was my local physio, became uh his son became my one of my best friends in in life, still is. I came home one day to from doing something, and they were all in the front front living room, and that wasn't so unusual because Barker's lived across the road, dad was you know dad dad, but David Zucker was lives at the other side of town, all right? He lives out out this way, Hawthorne. I was like, oh, what's he coming to visit for? And I came in and said, Pat, can you come and sit down? We want to have a chat with you. I'm like, okay, let me just put my tennis bag in my room, we'll come back. Uh came out and they said, Listen, um, you're not performing as well as you can. You're you're getting upset about about some some matches, and I think you're you know you can be better. And David knows somebody who can help you. It's a sport psychiatrist who he works with in the Olympic Games, and a guy called Jeff Bond. We think you should see him. And I had no idea what a sport psychologist was, that was really new stuff, and I'm I thought it was I literally thought it was they wanted psychiatric help. My immediate thing to went to is they want to lock me up, they want to be in a padded cell and put me in a straitjacket. It's quite a reaction, yeah. And I was like, I I just I didn't know what I mean, I just you know uh seen the movies, you know, psycho psycho, whatever, and I thought I thought the act that that actually think I'm insane. Wait a minute, okay. I'll lose my shit if I got a bad line call, I miss a shot, and I smashed a few rackets in my day, and I sort of sat there and I went, Um, so you think that you know I'm a bit mad and I lose my temper. So I, you know, I reacted like a mature 18, 19 year old or whatever I was, 20-year-old at the time. Told them to f off. And I went down to my room, slammed, slammed my door, threw shit all over my room, smashed a few things, and uh after I cooled down a bit, I went, I think they got a point. Sort of came back upstairs sheepishly and go, um yeah, I think you guys might have a point here. These people love me, they care for me, they love love me. They they wouldn't say this for for for no reason, you know, just to just to piss me off. So I went and I said, Okay, sorry guys, you know, and they we all sort of had a bit of a laugh about it and and uh and said, look, this just have a talk to Jeff. And Jeff was great. Sports psychology is basically stoicism. And you know, I'm sitting here with a stoic book uh now that that is one of the greatest business books uh written by a good friend of mine. Um Stoicism has been around for 3,000 years. Uh every every bit of garbage you hear the the football coaches sp spew out was something that I started spewing out back in 1986. I realized I needed some some help. Um and the focus wasn't on winning, though that was the ultimate goal, it was on being becoming better at at your craft, being able to deal with the pressure. And the stuff that Jeff told me day one was sticks in my brain. He he drew a line right through a bit of paper and he said, Right, this is how you this is how we'd like you to be. Beginning of the tennis match to the end of the tennis match. This is your emotions, this is how we'd like you to be.

Brigette McGuire 10:16

Very even.

Pat Cash 10:17

Very even, cool, calm, never flustered. This is how you sh this is how it is normal. And he just starts them doing zigzag line up and down, and he said, That's what we we we'd expect. You're up and down, you know, you win a point, you lose a point, blah blah blah, you're upset. And in tennis, realize I call tennis players losers. There are they're a bunch of losers. We lose all the time. We lose every point, second point. We lost that point. Okay, how do you rebound from that? And Pat, you're this, and you started doing the big dipper roller coaster up and down, up and down, right? Um, let's try and get to this little little zigzag line and and not the big one. And uh, when you're up too high, you need to be re recognize that and you come back down. When you're too low, you need to pump yourself up. So that was the majority, that was the real lesson and the essence of sport psychology in at pressure. You know, I was just a kid who wanted to play tennis and just wanted to win at all costs. And uh, you know, a pretty simple guy. Didn't think much about marketing or you know, my my image or anything like that. If I got and I'm I wear my heart in my sleeve, I'm pissed off people know about it. Yeah pretty quickly.

Brigette McGuire 11:24

There wasn't there wasn't the there wasn't a clear definition between Pat Cash the the brand and Pat Cash the person. It was one, one and the same.

Pat Cash 11:35

It is i i i I am. And you know, and and I think that's for better or for worse, I I'm genuine. You know, okay, you might not like me, or me, you know, whatever whatever happens to be, oh, he's do this, he's do that, or what I don't care. And the bottom line is I don't care. I never really cared, but I'm very sensitive at the same time. Yes. So when things boiled up and there was a big incident where I threw my racket or I lost this or whatever happened to be. In those days, you might laugh now, you say, Well, you know, Coco Goff just smashed her racket to pieces at the Australian Open. And then most all my mates would text me and say, Good honor. You know, she let it out. But there's bloody cameras there in the right at the back of the Australian Open. Ridiculous. I mean, it's like Big Brothers watching out there. It's it's mental. But nowadays you could go in the locker room and smash a racket and nobody know about it. But um, you know, I had a couple of incidences where it made headlines all over the place, cash does this, cash does that, and it made newspapers, right? So I I was sort of branded, and this is off the back of an era where John McEnroe's and Ilya Nastasi and Jimmy Connors came through, and they were the bad boys. They didn't want bad boys in the circuit, they wanted to nail down on the next generation of bad boys. They're not gonna have another mack and row. We made mistakes there. You know, the mackenroe rule, pull out the um, get the umpire off the chair, grab the referee, do ran riot. We're not gonna let that happen. Next guy's and now that was their basic agenda. Who was the next guy? Me. So I was nailed all the time for fines for this, fine for that, ban for this, do this, that they were trying to, and but Neil Fraser, the Davis Cup captain, knew that's how I play. How do you expect a young guy to go out there and play with ferocity and attacking for hours and hours on end and then go, mate, just calm down. You know, it's like it's ridiculous. It's like telling a you know, it's it's like telling Derby Brereton or somebody like that, mate, I want you to get out there and smash these guys, but just do it calmly. It just doesn't work, right? You know, you you it you know it just it just doesn't work. You've got to have some fire in the belly, and you but you can't go overboard, you know. So it was trying to find that right balance, and I suppose image and whatever I wasn't concerned about. It can go too bad. Of course. Of course. Um, and then there wasn't any damage control back in those days. The damage control was, you know, the Davis Cup captain coming out and going, Well, Pat had a bad day, or you know, leave him alone, please. You know, we he wants to play for Australia. The the media would have preferred me to lose the Davis Cup because that was a big difference. Is that how you felt? Oh, 100%. Right. They were out of control in those in those days. There wasn't any, sorry, we're having a press conference. It was they walked on the bloody court and interviewed you as soon as you finished your practice session. It wasn't like, hold on, give me guys 10 minutes, we'll be with you in a half an hour. They just walked on the court, right? Can we even interview? And okay, well, Pat, you just played a bad practice session there with the guys who saw you throw your racket. How do you feel about that? Don't you think you're behaving well? This is not what Australia expects. You know, aren't you embarrassed with yourself? And I'm like, I'm I'm I'm I'd I'm done. You know, and he's like, you know, an invasion, isn't it? So it was a real invasion, but that was the story. They wanted the stories. So I had the I created a protective team around me. So I had the first team. The first team was Anne Quinn, uh Jeff Bond, Pat Cash, Ian Barclay, uh my my partner, my my father was there too. So the climb up to the box, which we referred to, was my way of thanking the first ever individual team. Um and I just thought, how a better way, there can't be a better way to thank them than to to do this. And there you were, yeah, Wimbledon, royal family in the box, and I just went, I've always I've just worn my heart on my sleeves, stuff it, I don't care what any what's gonna happen, I've got to go and do this.

Brigette McGuire 15:20

And that's why Australia has has loved you for for generations, Pat, because whilst whilst you had administrators who were trying to keep bad boys, if you like, on tour in in check, and media were going for a particular angle to you, there were generations of firstly Australian children, including myself, who you know you're inspired to play the game and undoubtedly around the world. And that's what every sports marketer wants. They want their champions to capture the hearts and minds of young children. You know, it's a really competitive market.

Pat Cash 15:59

They want champions. They want champions. I'm jumping ahead here because I I think I know where you're going here. It doesn't matter how well you market yourself, if you don't win a bloody tennis match or a football game, nobody gives a shit. That was the bot my bottom line. And that was where nobody cares, and it's and and I think Neil Fraser or somebody on my dad or somebody said, it doesn't matter. If you win matches, people will love you. If you lose and behave like that, there's a certain Australian person, player who's got a lot of talent, behaves poorly and loses, people get sicky really quickly.

Brigette McGuire 16:34

Sure. So it's that brand equity that comes with actually being champion. So who I want to I want to explore that a little bit, Pat. So so you were that for lots of young Aussies. Who was that champion for you?

Pat Cash 16:47

John Newcomb. Right. John Newcom and John Alexander. I saw John Alexander, I saw John Newcomb. I had the opportunity to walk onto the Ku Yong Center court as a 10-year-old, maybe 11.

Brigette McGuire 16:56

Okay.

Pat Cash 16:57

Jimmy Connors finally came out to Australia, got to the finally Australian Open, had to play our hero, John Newcomb. For whatever reason, they they let they decided to leave all the kids come on to the side of the court, behind the the side barrier. Right. Uh, you know, the centre court, but they didn't have you know all corporate boxes and blah blah blah. There was a you know little bar little banner down the bottom, and they let all the kids come on and sit around sit there. And I was one of those kids who sat there and just watched you know, an 11-year-old I didn't really know much about tennis or 10 and just saw these, just started, I just started playing and watched Jimmy Connors, and they're so close I could just about touch them. Oh my god, I want to be these guys, I want to be like Nuke. Um, and that inspired me, you know. It it these you need champions to to inspire the next generation. Uh there's no doubt it's about heroes, uh whatever it happens to be. So Nuke was my inspiration.

Brigette McGuire 17:51

And so was that experience the reason because I understand you you could have gone on to be an you know a footballer without doubt. Yeah, if we know you were you're winning everything, you're a child prodigy, you had an incredible first step, and your your sprinting talent was you know world class. Was that why you chose tennis?

Pat Cash 18:11

Um, I don't think I've picked any particular thing over the other. It was I love footy. Footy was my number one sport because my dad played for the Hawks for about five years, so I used to be able to get into the rooms back there and see Peter Hudson who was and Lee Matthews, I mean, and Peter Knights. I mean, talk about gods of football. That was I want to be a footy player. And I used to play Saturday afternoon for the winter time, you know, that sort of stuff. Whenever I had a football man all the time, you know, kicking football, kicking goals. I was really good, kick. I was a I was for whatever reason. But tennis was almost every day for the year, not just you know, every every day for a season. It was all the time. You know, we'd after footy, we'd throw that down and we pick up cricket ball, right? I still play tennis, and then I still play tennis, and then you'd do athletics for a season, and I'd still play tennis the next day. Pick the footy, I'd still play tennis, I'd go hockey into Marcelin school, that was great school. I'd play hockey, I'd learn how to field uh field hockey, but then the afternoon I'd go and play tennis. So all of a sudden I started becoming just really good at tennis, and then we had the opportunity. Then I there wasn't I I had uh I became very quickly from sort of number three in Victoria, four in Victoria to number one in in Australia, along with Mark Hartnett, who was a year older than me, and they were all coached by by Barkers. Um and uh then there's an opportunity to go overseas and play internationally, and that was that was huge. That was just so exciting to go overseas and and play tennis.

Brigette McGuire 19:36

I want to touch, you know, on the that first time that you played overseas because tennis, as we know, similarly to golf, is an expensive sport for families. You know, so and and going overseas as it always has been, most of the tour of most of the tennis competition is is in Europe and in the States. It's it's not in Australia, it is for some of the you know the time here in in January. So how important were those early sponsors that got behind you to you know to help facilitate that opportunity to to play in Europe for the first time where those great champions of the game had had played?

Pat Cash 20:12

Yeah. Well huge. Uh Tennis Australia wasn't Tennis Australia, then it was the Lawn Tennis Association of Australia. They didn't really have any junior development program. They used to send the best juniors over to play junior Wimbledon, you know, at the age of 18, 19. But lower than that, they didn't have anything.

Brigette McGuire 20:28

Um so you're not getting exposure to the world's best until you're 18.

Pat Cash 20:32

Yeah, 17, 18, maybe getting the junior Davis Cup squad, and you can you know be Orange Boy for the Davis Cup guys, and then see international players, whoever they come to be Mexico, Italians, whatever, whoever the uh Australia played in Australia, you could be Orange Boy and just sort of sit around. That was kind of it. Um that was the path. And then Ian Ian had coached the Minter sisters, uh, Ann and Liz, and they were the top two in the country. Uh Ian coached Mark Hartnett, he was the he was a 15-year-old. I was a 14-year-old Ann. Um Liz and I were the youngest. Um, the only other boy was Wally Massour. Um, he he so we sort of basically got Commonwealth Bank, uh, a few in a few investors. Michael Edgely was huge. Michael Edgely, who um some of the older people know as the guy who did the Moscow Circus, put them out first. He brought uh Bob Marley out. He knows he was a concert promoter. Um his son played, and his son was a good player, uh Western Australian.

Brigette McGuire 21:28

Mark.

Pat Cash 21:28

Mark Edgley, yeah. And he said, Look, I'll I'll back you. Can Mark come with you? I know Mark's not the top three, but he's probably in the top five in the country, six. Can you come with you? If you can't if you look after him, you know, we'll I'll put some money in as well. So with me and uh they uh my dad uh doing it and my my uncle and a few great people um made what they call match, make a tennis champion here. So that was the thing. Six weeks sponsorship over two years. So it's twelve weeks. So we gotta wait over overseas for six weeks and Long. Six weeks is not long. Basically, go through Italy, all the best junior tournaments in Italy, play a couple in Holland. You know, that was sort of the route. That's where all the good players came out of. And so we thought we'd we'd do that. And the first year we went over there and got the shock of our lives and how good the good players were. Right.

Brigette McGuire 22:17

In a reality check.

Pat Cash 22:19

A reality check. In actual fact, I'll get through this story quickly. But Mark and I had arrived in Italy, flown all the way. Took us 42 hours or something to get to Milano. Big international tournament called the Avenir Cup, which was regarded as the under-16 world championship back then. All the best players played here, and the winner board was just like, wow. Everybody made it. We went went there and uh they I I I was the youngest guy and Mark, we wanted to have a practice, and they said, Well, literally day one, um, can you play with this Swedish kid? He's number three and number three, but you know, he hasn't got anybody to hit with. Can you oh yeah, we're like, oh yeah, we'd love to hit with a Swedish kid.

Brigette McGuire 22:54

Does he look like a koala?

Pat Cash 22:56

Yes. So he he uh yeah, so we went out on the court and hit with this, so two players, so me and Mark against this other guy, Swedish kid, for 20 minutes and you hit up and down, you know, and it's get two against one. It's like basically, you know, there's a challenge for number one. You play for 10 minutes and you rotate around, you know, you put you know that sort of thing. This kid, we were hitting him for 20 minutes and didn't miss a frickin' ball. And we're literally looking at each other going, Oh my god, this kid's not even good enough to be in the team. He's number three because there was a sort of national competition, but it was singles and doubles. And uh and then we just go, Oh my god, we're in so much trouble because we can't even beat, you know, we've no way we can beat this kid. He's number three Swedish guy, let alone number one. And that ended up being Mats Villander.

Brigette McGuire 23:38

Uh who you thought at the time looked like a koala.

Pat Cash 23:41

Work higher nickname koala because he had these hair pulling out with his ears, and yeah. So um, so we've become we've literally been almost friends our whole life since I was fifth fourteen.

Brigette McGuire 23:51

I've known Matt's uh and shared the cord on some of the biggest ones, yeah.

Pat Cash 23:56

First first year in Melbourne Park in the final here. We played each other in the final and went eight, six in the fifth, and he got me. And you know, he's um it's French friendships. You know, you turned up to my charity event the other day, you know. I asked him, said mate, can you come and do this? He said, Yep. Oh, you sure? Yep. And it's like, great, you know, that's what friends are friends about. So um I suppose that was there is a good thing. Is it spirit? Is it Aussie spirit of tennis? You go hard, yes, you you you compete like an absolute animal, you don't give them an inch, and then at the end of the day, yeah, you'd you shake hands and say, Well done, or bad luck, and you'd have a beer. Yeah, we didn't really have a beer in those, but those these days they did. And that was the way it was. It was sort of partially amateur, it was just becoming the so that was the sort of spirit that I was raised on. You know, go hard, compete like hell, don't give an inch. But at the end of the day, you know, you you'd be a good guy, but you know, you're ruthless at that when you're on the court. White line fever.

Brigette McGuire 24:55

Yeah, it's sounded very goal-oriented but process driven. If we stay on on sponsorship for a moment, you know, nowadays we're we're used to seeing, you know, it's the the finals presentation and sponsors love it. They love nothing more than the athlete saying thank you to their their brand. It's when the ratings are at the highest, we've had the final, we know who the champion is, we know who the finalist is. And uh athletes are you know expected to to get up and and thank thank those who have run the tournament, but also particularly the sponsors, and you know it's very important to the sponsors to do that. Can you share with us what happened um when your finalist at at uh that that last uh Australian open uh at Couyong?

Pat Cash 25:40

Uh well 87 just lost the final to to Stefan, um, you know, a a long brutal five set match. And yeah, of course, there's there was Ford, Ford's were the main sponsor back in those days. Um and so I was asked to come up and talk, and I was sort of reluctantly pushed up there.

Brigette McGuire 25:55

I was like, oh this is the last thing you want to do.

Pat Cash 25:58

This is the last thing I want to do. I'm sitting there just sort of, you know, just about you know, just miserable. Just want to get off and get in the locker room and put my, you know, talk to my coach. That's all I wanted to do. Um, so they reluctantly pushed me up there, and I said, Oh, well, you know, well done, Stefan. Um, you know, I sat there right things, and you know, you know, well done, you played a great match. Uh look, I I could go on and on and thank the sponsors and all that junk, but I won't, I'll let you do that. Next thing you know, I'm accused of calling the sponsors junk. So it all kicked off behind the scenes. Uh Paul McNamy, of course, became sort of tournament director of the Australian Open after that. Um Colin Stubbs, but Paul McNamee is a good mate, a good mate of mine. And he said, Caffey, you mate, you called Ford junk. I said, What are you talking about? No, I didn't. He said, You kind of did. I said, No, I didn't. I said, I said, you know, go back. He says, I look, I know you didn't, but Ford think that you did. And I said, Well, I I didn't. I you know, it was just like thanking the sponsors like Ford and all that junk. It doesn't mean oh Ford are junk. Um, can you go and apologise? I said, No. And I'm not going to apologize because I didn't call them junk. I didn't mean to call them junk, and I'm not going to write a letter. So that sort of kicked off behind the scenes. Oh, I get the point. I I I understand. And in retrospect, I probably sort of said, sorry, I didn't mean I certainly didn't mean to insinuate that your cars are junk.

Brigette McGuire 27:21

Um, but it could have been a great ad campaign that came out of that, really. Well, it was it was if I was managing you at that time, Pat, I would have said, Okay, let's all be coming up with a really funny.

Pat Cash 27:33

I know what you're saying, but it was it was kind of more behind the scenes, and then it sort of crept out into the media and stuff like that. But see, I I wasn't really conscious, I didn't really f focus on my image. I just focused on winning tennis matches, and that's right. Maybe that was wrong.

Brigette McGuire 27:47

Um in retrospect, could you you know, when you think about that when um, you know, brands, young athletes today really have to consider themselves as as brands because it's such an important revenue stream for them, social media platforms and the like.

Pat Cash 28:01

Yeah.

Brigette McGuire 28:02

Is that something because you put in place all of those experts in all of those key areas for you to perform in your workplace to the best of your ability? Was that an area if you if you think back that and it wasn't it wasn't, you know, done to the extent that it is now? It was a different time, of course.

Pat Cash 28:21

It is.

Brigette McGuire 28:22

But is that something that you think might have been something you would have added to that to that team?

Pat Cash 28:27

Yeah, look, quite possibly. Yeah, you're right. It wasn't something you did back then. You didn't have a uh a media, a market marketing person, uh somebody who's you know, it was your sort of the management just sort of did that and set up an interview. Hey Pat, would you like to talk to Financial Times? Hey Pat, would you like to talk to the age? Hey Pat, would you like to do tennis uh tennis magazine? I hadn't talked the Australian Tennis Magazine for for 10 years because in 1984 I lost in the semi-final of Super Saturday, which was the biggest ever televised sporting event in in the in the world. It was called Super Saturday, it was a massive day. McEnray played Connors, uh uh Evert played Navarra Lover in the final, and I played Lendell in the first match and lost 7-6 in the fifth set after having match point. It was 12 hours. They called it Super Saturday. I played in the original one after that match. I played a great match against Lendle. I'm 19, I had match point, I lost, but geez, I played great. I thought I've arrived. I got the semi-final at Wimbledon that year, same year. All of a sudden, I've arrived. Tennis magazines in the US were saying hot cash, my photo on the front of it. I got a sponsorship. I started getting some sponsorship. Uh Prince. Okay. Prince Sergio Tacchini signed me up and clothing. You know, I was on X Hot Property. I was playing great. I was carefree, played like McEnroe style, but true Aussie sort of stuff. You know, life was going great. Uh, I lost that match, and there was one fan right behind me who was cheering the whole time for me. Come on, it was because Lendell had been in the final US Open. He had a lot of support there. He lived in Connecticut around the corner. And after the match, the guy was like, Pat, Pat, give me the racket. And I was like, okay. So I picked up the racket and I tossed it to him. He was about five rows back, and he grabbed it. I said, No, no, no, no. Somebody girls grabbed it. I said, No, to that guy, okay, he grabbed it. I get fined for throwing my racket violently into the crowd. Whoops. Which was ridiculous, which got I they I said, go back and look at the video. I didn't throw it in the crowd. But Tennis Magazine said they did, the Australian Tennis Magazine. Of course, I was the glamour boy then. And you know, I was on every every second cover. Alan Trengrove, the the editor, said, and and I wrote a letter back, actually, even you know, I knew I just ignored most of the stuff they you know, wrote the articles, blah, blah, blah. Um, but I wrote a letter back, or my father did, and said, No, I didn't throw the racket, I threw it to a fan who was in the fifth row back there. By the way, that fine was taken away when they realized that was the case. And he wrote back, out of spite, I was there, I saw you violently throw into the crowd. Fine. I will never talk to you again. So for 10 years, the tennis magazine, I was the number one player. I'm not going to talk to you. You just plain lied to make yourself look good. You know, and I so I have these moral principles that I'll stick to. If I'm wrong, I'll admit I'm wrong and I screwed up. If I've blown up and made myself look bad, because it's not PC, my initials, but if I'm not PC, so be it. Now that's not ideal. You as a marketer wouldn't wouldn't like that. Go, Pat, you know, can we do this? We'll do this article to make you look look better. And my thing is, no, it doesn't sit with my moral compass. I'm not gonna do that. But it'd be great for you. No, I'm not gonna do it. And I've got you know, I've got myself in hot water from for various things that I know are correct and what I believe in. I started Planet Arc, I don't know if you know Planet Arc Environment Group, but it's no longer with us. But my good friend from Planet Arc, John D, who is really good at marketing.

Brigette McGuire 32:02

So you've got all these com TV commercials from all these superstars, from Kylie Mano, Piers Brosnan to uh so again, Peter, just to jump in there, you're really ahead of your time because athletes today, as part of their brand portfolio, if you like, they will align themselves with causes or or charities where there's a there's a value exchange, it's it's great promotion for the for the charity. They need awareness, they need donations, and at the same time, and and often these are sincere and obviously authentic connections as well, they're important to the athlete, but there's also a positive for their brand. But you were doing this, you were founding charities and causes that were important to you decades, decades ago.

Pat Cash 32:46

Again, it was nothing to do with image, it was just what was right. What was right for the environment was right. Uh you know, I started a handful of charities now. Uh I've still got uh one here called Youth of Tomorrow. We when we bus kids for underprivileged schools, we'll get nothing. We bring them in and give them a tennis day, and we s we pay for all that stuff.

Brigette McGuire 33:04

Um So what what motivated you to do that, to always be someone that's caring for for others?

Pat Cash 33:11

My dad. Uh I don't think I ever saw my dad walk past somebody on the street without giving them some money.

Brigette McGuire 33:16

Okay.

Pat Cash 33:16

Uh he was just incredibly kind. My family, uh very proud of my family. You know, we're a big Catholic family. You know, my dad was one of nine or something. And it was always about helping somebody out that was less fortunate than you. And I was a young father, so I was, you know, I was caring for you know my son, I was 21. Um biggest shock and and uh excitement in my life to have a son born on my 21st birthday. Uh you know, and my mother always said, Be you be generous. And it's something I've had to actually have to work work through as a as an adult. My mother said, You always go and buy your friends dinner, you buy them everything because you got money and they don't, and they're the yes, they're students, and you look after them. Okay, mum. And you know to this day I still do. I go no, I'll buy dinner, and they go, Pat, you can't buy dinner, it's two grand. And then so it's now I've been talking, oh okay, chip in then. Good point. I haven't got two grand on my bank account at the moment. Um, and but it was just about doing the right thing. So I do very, very few things that I actually think about what's the end result for me, other than financially. You know what I'm saying? Sure. It's like, is there does this align with what I believe in?

Brigette McGuire 34:26

Now, in marketing, of course, the headband that is an iconic symbol that people identify with you. When you go on the court, they they know that that's Pat Cash. Over the course of your career.

Pat Cash 34:40

There's love the other day. Some somebody go to some kid go, Oh, that's a cool headband. Where'd you get that? I said, Oh, it's my that's my trademark. Oh, okay, I had no idea who I was.

Brigette McGuire 34:49

So so firstly, where did you get that? And and secondly, how many have you given away over your career?

Pat Cash 34:54

Yeah, well, again, um the checkered headband was based on the guitarist. I started playing guitar in my favourite band in the world at that time, and still one of my favourite bands, is a band called Cheap Trick. They had a lot of loads of hits in the 80s and even 90s. And then I was just a huge fan of them, you know, wrote to their fan club, that sort of stuff. You know, there was post-bassity rollers, god still I'm all these all these names that people your listeners won't have a clue talking about. But you know, I was a big fan. And uh the guitarist had this checkered striped stuff all over checkered guitar strap, and he used to wear and he was the really quirky, dorky-looking guitarist. He was really, really cool, uh, and played great guitar stuff. Uh, but he looked like a sort of a a dorky guy, but it was everything was black, checkered black and white. So his guitar strap, if you want to look it up, Rick Nielsen, his guitar strap is my headband. It's as simple as that. It was just a fanboy thing. It's like I want to get a make, I want to do something different than just the normal headband. A fan in England gave me a bandana, like a toweling bandana, and I and those days we used to just have the round headband you put it on that you see, you know, in so sometimes in commercials now, retro commercials. Um, and uh I thought I want to and then she she gave me this, and I said, Oh, that's cool, that's band down, it's more rock and roll, more guns and roses. Guns and roses are coming through at the time. I was a rocker, so yeah, yeah, that's more Guns N' Roses, Van Halen, you know, that sort of stuff, Iron Maiden, that sort of stuff. And and so I I asked, I asked my mum, I said, Mum, can you somehow find out how we can get a black and white toweling checkered thing? Basically like a towel, checkered towel. We can cut it up and make it a headband. And because that's you know, I want to do that something different. I just want to do something different. And you needed it for the sweat. I needed it for the sweat, first of all. I was sweat, I sweat like crazy. So I couldn't see without one. Um so I I thought that was actually a conscious thing to make uh do something different with my image. Probably one of the only few times I decided to do deep down, you're a marketer, Pat. Oh I'm a punk. Maybe I'm a punk. I'm just a heavy heavy metal kid. Heavy metal wasn't big in my day. There was like one store. We used to drive and go to Flinder Street Station, go across the road, uh, Flinders Street Station Records, used to have all the heavy metal records. That was it. You go in there and you see Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath and Judas Priest and all these bands, and you see all these kids dressed in black, black t-shirts, and rock and roll and leather and stuff like that. And I'm like, I'm one of them actually. So let's do something a bit rock and roll on the tennis court.

Brigette McGuire 37:17

So did your mum make them?

Pat Cash 37:18

I had to ask her for about three years and just eventually I said, Mum, can you please? This is really good. I really want this. Oh, don't be silly, my mum's American. Don't be silly, you're being being silly, you don't need that. Just wear the one, just buy one on the shop. And like, Mum, this is gonna be really cool. People are gonna like this, and I can give them out to the fans, and that they'll really like it. So that was really the only time I th I consciously thought of that. Took her forever to make them. Eventually, she did, and though I had a handful of them, and that's why I wore them during that year at Wimbledon. Now I can print them out all the time.

Brigette McGuire 37:50

So that's a lovely that's a lovely story that your mum. My mum made that basically organized it. She knew it was important to you.

Pat Cash 37:58

It was important to me. She didn't understand what the importance for me as a personality would be, you know. I I was I was a rebel. I mean, basically, I was a rebel. I like heavy metal music, iron maiden black t-shirts on, people didn't know what the hell that was. I used to go out there and yell and scream and play tennis, and you know, I was 21, I had a baby in my arms. Uh, and you know, it's like this guy is not normal. And I'm like, I'm not normal. You're an outlier. I I'm not normal. I I get it. I get it. Uh I don't think normal, I don't act normal. Um, and you know, I think my mum realised it was important for me to do that, and it's it's it's sort of stuck as one of those, just one of those things. I climbed up through the box. I didn't want to be like everybody else. I I wanted to be I want to do what I feel like is right to do and climbed up there. And most more people know me from that as the the guy climbed up, the first guy to climb up into the players' box. It was the first time individual sport did it. You know, football players would jump on the the um the the coach would do on the footy when they won the premiership, whatever. But to win a chance a single person to jump into the stands is was and I thought, why not? That's the most natural thing to do to celebrate with their team. Why not do it? You know, somebody just had to say, oh, somebody had to be the first and just happened to be stupid old me. Oh, you've been the first time. I kind of got in trouble, but it was it was it was big. I knew it'd cause a bit of a stir, but I didn't realise I'd hold the royal family up and I'd get a right old telling off by the by the All England Club a bit at Wimbledon for holding the royal the the the uh ceremony and and the royal family up. You can't hold the royal family up from coming out.

Brigette McGuire 39:30

Okay.

Pat Cash 39:30

I saw Princess Diana after that after that and charity events and got to know her a little bit, a few things, and and she always said, Oh, I love that climate, you did. You know, she was in the box there. I said, Oh, I got told off for for for cl for uh holding up the royal family. She said, Oh, I didn't care. That was cool, that was great. And she was a bit she a rebel herself, of course.

Brigette McGuire 39:49

And a quite a respectable tennis player as well.

Pat Cash 39:52

She was uh yeah, she was an amateur player, but she enjoyed it. She had fun. And she she was really lovely. It was lovely talking to her about things, but so I won't discuss on ones. Of course, of course. But she was a lovely person. I think I felt like a bit of an outsider as well. Like like I did. It's crazy how outsiders sort of connect with each other.

Brigette McGuire 40:09

And tell me from a commercial perspective, you know, your your your headband was a key piece of merchandise that identified you as a as a brand in the sporting world. You chose not to sell that. You've always given that away.

Pat Cash 40:24

Yeah.

Brigette McGuire 40:25

What what drove that decision?

Pat Cash 40:26

When you get a Pat Cash headband, it's special. It's something special. If you go and buy the shop, it's not special. And the m the the offers and the money and actual fact, uh Sergio Tacchini with my clothing company. Um I remember coming back within six months after winning the championship, and somebody came out with a Pat Cash Sergio Tocchini headband, check it headband. I was like, 'cause can you sign this? I'm like, what's this? They said, Oh, I bought it at the shop, they're selling them. I said, Whoa, okay. Uh I think I might have signed it. I said, Okay, you've probably got the only sign one ever. Straight back to the management and said, cancel this. They cannot in any any stage sell my headband with my name on it. They didn't ask me for that. They just gone in and did it. They branded it. No, absolutely not. Because there's something special. So I probably spent I've got you say $100,000 on buying headbands that I've given away to people over the over the 40 years. And I still still get 200, 300 a year because I give them the charity, I give them the kids, I do kids' clinic stays or whatever, and and you know, I I give them out because it's something and assign them as something special. It'd be like getting a a cricket ball from Shane Warren. I mean I'm not probably not not as famous as he is, but in certain countries, and he's certainly not that popular in Italy, for instance, as I am. They never heard of cricket in Italy, but you know what I'm saying. But you get a you get a signed ball from Shane Warren. Oh my god, have you got to go out there and buy a shop that's got a logo Shane Warren on it? You know, what doesn't matter Oh yeah, I got one of those too. I don't know. You know, you want something special. So you know, I got the cease and desist on that very quickly, that selling the headbands, and and I did it for a brief moment for charity. I sold them for a buck each for a brief moment on my website. Um the money went to charity, but that was about it.

Brigette McGuire 42:16

Okay. Now you seem more in demand from what I you know, you're so active, you know, more in demand from from sponsors, you do corporate appearances, your commentary, your charity work, music performances. You know, what opportunities are exciting you most right now?

Pat Cash 42:35

Life's pretty good. I mean, uh, I might get in the age, I'm getting close to you know, I'm retirement age, I'm 60 now, get a free bus pass and all that sort of stuff. I think I get. Um You still look like you could play at Melbourne Park, Pat. Yeah, I still know. My knees and everything are gone. But um you know, grandkids. Uh I got four grandkids. Um, I got four kids, I got an amazing partner. I've been very lucky in love, found the found the love of my life sitting in the corner here, embarrassing her. Um so life is trying to trying to get the balance right between home life and stuff I still want to do. I still love coaching. Towards the end of my career, it's all these injuries we talked about, and I need I realized I realised I needed to change my game. I need to change my biomechanics, I needed to stop getting injured. These big hitting guys like Sampras and Agassiz and uh Philippoosis and these guys were on the horizon all coming into the game, and I said, I've got to match them. How am I gonna match these guys, these young fit guys? I'm now 30. So I went back to the basics and I I went into into again biomechanics, sports science, and I learned all about uh about the biomechanics of of body movement through a great guy called Brad Langavad, who's Australian. He helped me fix my back injury one year, but I didn't go all the way through with him and do the rest of my rest of my shots because I thought he was just fixed that. At the end of my career, I realized Those that needed help, and I thought, I've either got to retire. I'm not, you know, I've lost a bit of speed. I lot I can't hit the ball as hard as these guys do. What can I do? And um, you know, as luck would have it, I got injured in the first round this after qualifying at Wimbledon. I got got beaten up and injured, and he I happened to just run into him. What are you doing in England? He said, Oh, I'm doing this now. I've got a whole computer analysis stuff. And we sat down and I went, Oh my god, oh my god, this is the missing link. That's the missing this is how the modern tennis is played. So I've had a deep dive into this for the last 30 years of biomechanics, how to hit the ball properly, how the body moves. I knew I already knew the tactics, I already knew their mental capacity, I knew the fitness stuff thanks to Ann and everything else. The missing link was the modern technique. So I've combined all that. Um you see hit see so much stuff that's out there uh in the internet. It's just so it's so much rubbish. It's uh cut a long story short, I've been working with pro players on the tour, base part of 15 years. Coco Vanderway played with Ash Barty, won the Ash's first Grand Slam in the US Open doubles together. Um Baghdadis, Popper and uh Nakashima, uh Lee Two I'm working with now, the young Aussie guy from Ad Adelaide, Wang Chiang from China for a couple of years. Uh on an off start of my own tennis academy up in the Gold Coast. Um, everybody was making money except me. Uh I was getting all the headaches, so had to stop that. But then I realized I'd sit down and listen to commentators, even ones I I I quite regard or friends, and they started to talk about technique and do this, and he should do that, and she should put through this, and the technique should move this and the rest. And I just go, No, it's all wrong. There's so many fallacies out there, so many. And I said, I'm gonna write a book. I'm finally gonna write a book. That's I've had enough. I've had enough of this. And I'm and I'm gonna call it Unfuck Your Serve.

Brigette McGuire 45:50

Okay.

Pat Cash 45:50

Uh you're not a swear, aren't they? He's laughing his head off.

Brigette McGuire 45:54

As a marketer, that's that uh that title will have cut through.

Pat Cash 45:57

It'll have cut through, exactly. Justin actually is from Toowoomba, knows knows a guy up in Toowoomba who's written a bunch of golf books. He's a biomechanist, does golf swings. He's got the basics simple. Cut away all the stuff. He said he wrote a bunch of books that didn't sell. He said he wrote the same book and just changed the name but unfuck your swing, golf swing, and it started selling. He said, Cash, you should talk to him. And I said, Okay. And he said, Oh, basically, we started talking about biomechanics and this and that. He said, There's all this stuff, and then he goes, Yeah, you've got to boil it down to the basics. Scrape away all the other stuff that people, all the mysteries around it, and get the basic principles. And then you can go into a deep dive and do more stuff on the bonus material. And things are digital these days. I didn't, I said, Oh my god. He said, Yeah, I'll just do digital. I do, I talk to the camera, I get on the tennis court, I show the people. I said, That's of course you've got to show the people. He said, Yeah, we can do this all digitally now. So we you can put all this stuff online. He said, You can update it, just add one more to next week. This is this is how Djokovic hits his second serve. This is how Feder hits his forehand. This is how Dimenauer chases a ball down, do the biomechanics on how to move. I oh, so you can keep adding stuff. He said, Yeah. And the marketing, he said, mate, I'm a nobody. People buy four of my books in one go. I said, You're I said, No way people buy you four books. And we're dizzy chatting away, doing going through the the photos and the editing the book. He goes, Bing, he goes, check it out. He had got Harry. Harry from America from Atlanta has just bought four books. I said, You're joking. He said, Yeah, 125 bucks born one go, and I'm a nobody. He said, Pat, we can you can we can do this. He said, You this is something you love, you analyze. So I'm videoing players all the time. I've got videos there, everybody serving and all this sort of stuff. And um, so that's that's kind of what I'm passionate about. He said, your knowledge. But the answer the question is, the interesting question is, do you want to give your intellectual knowledge away for 25 bucks?

Brigette McGuire 47:58

That's a that's a business decision that you're going to have to.

Pat Cash 48:01

And the way that I think if you want to own something, you must give it away. It's no use, how many inventions have we heard about? Oh, I heard about this guy who could he's got free energy from blah blah blah, but he doesn't want it, he wants to sell it to the right person. It never comes out. If you go and say, I know this is this is how to unfuck your serve, this is how it is, and I'm telling everybody, and I'm gonna give it to you for 25 bucks, I don't care. And if you want to buy the extra bonus material, great, there's another 20 bucks, whatever. If you give it away, you own that. So now when people want to go back to the basics of learning how to throw the ball, learning how to serve, learning the biomechanics, they will go to my book and they go, Pat Cash is the guru. He owns this information. It's not my information. I've just picked and choose and and from experience, put it all together. So that will be probably my legacy. I I figure it will be my legacy. I could be completely wrong and it might never sell a book. But I always believe that when you give something away, that that is the way to own that. I know it doesn't sound right, but when you think about it, how do you know that somebody owns something unless you see it, unless they give it to you? How do you know somebody's kindness unless they give you love? They own that love, they give it to you. A person's a lovely person, isn't he nice? Because he's just giving me love, they've given it away to you. So, oh he's such a forgiving person. You know, I did that. He didn't. He was cool about it. You know, that was he was really cool. He said, No, don't worry about it. Oh my god, what a what a nice person. You know, so that empathy, so you give things away to get to get back in in two or threefold. That's always been my thing.

Brigette McGuire 49:41

What about for you know, Jen, the next gen, gen Z, you know, that are that are social media natives, we call them. They have grown up in this world of of social media. How did they, how are they going to find and explore and and discover your wisdom and uh you know the information that you want to share with them?

Pat Cash 50:01

Well, I've got to be honest and say that social media for me was a pain in the ass. Um I had no idea about you know connecting with young younger people. You know, I just thought, well, my son came out of college in the University of Florida with a social media marketing degree. He's now 40. He came out uh and moved to London. He was in he's Norwegian, Daniel. Um he moved to London and went straight into one of the biggest marketing companies in in the world, actually, and certainly in the UK, number one, who are marketing Guinness and all sorts of big, big name brands. And they grabbed him and said, Well, what's this social media stuff about? So this is 15 years ago, whatever, 16 years ago. And he was explaining to them. He just came out of college with a degree, and he said, Dad, this is the biggest marketing company. They have no idea about social media. That's that's the next thing. So he said, Dad, you've got to get onto this. So we we started doing social media posts, uh, started doing podcasts, started doing newsletters, all that sort of stuff. And then there was the laws about uh you have to re-sign up again, um, junk marketing type of stuff. And then I got hacked and I just lost the oh my god, I had a you know, I had 100,000 followers or whatever, and then I got zero. So six, seven years. I said, Oh, forget it, I'm just not interested. Pain in the bum. And in a conversation just over Christmas time, with a good mate of mine in the UK, I said, Listen, the book's gonna be coming out in a few months. And you know, I'm not exactly when it's sure it's gonna be because I'm busy at the Australian Open, but it'll be out, you know, by April, May. He says, You've got to go to the content providers, social media influencers. And I'm like, Why? They said, mate, they're being massive. I said, What are you talking about? He said, It's Tennis Australia are flying them out. They have 500,000, 600,000 followers around the world. They're tennis Australia are onto it. They know that if they can get the influencers uh out there and they put content, some's about fashion, some about tennis, some about the food, blah, blah, blah. He said, They've got they've hit half a million. I said, they don't fly me out. He said, Pat, you don't have half a million followers. Why would they fly you out for? I'm like, 'cause I'm I'm a legend. No, you're no value to the tournament, really, other than maybe sitting in the front row there. You're not really any value. It gives some credit credibility to the tournament, but you're not you're not in touch with them. Here's a list of them. I know some of them. So I contacted a bunch of them, and then all of a sudden I realized, oh my God, you know, this is really cool stuff. Let's talk about the fashion, the food, how to hit a forehand. Well, okay. How to hit a serve. Right, you need a serve lesson. Contact him. Hey, Pat Cash is here. Yeah, let's go to Kuyong. I'm the Ku Yong ambassador. For whatever reason, they call me Mr. Kuyong, I don't know. Kuyong ambassador for the tournament there, but I'm a member of the club. I've been for many, many years and my first tennis lesson there.

Brigette McGuire 52:49

Played a few.

Pat Cash 52:50

Played a few matches there. Yeah. I'll go out there. It's an iconic club. The club are like, yeah, please show people our club. Beautiful courts, as you know. That balcony there, sit on there, having a cup of coffee on the balcony. I say, I'll tell you what, I'll invite you to the old home of the Australian Open, the spiritual home of Australian tennis, and give you a free tennis lesson on the center court. Would you like to do it if you promote my book? And boom, boom, boom, boom. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, oh wow, I had no idea this club even existed. I didn't know Kooyong existed. They're like walking around, go, this is amazing. Oh my god, I'm on center court. They were like, they were like the kids, you know. And I was like, my whole world's been opened up. So in theory, over the last week, focusing on thank my friend Greg, and my partner Charlotte, who's saying Pat, you've got to get up with it. I probably hit 1.5 million subscribers or viewers. Congratulations. I don't know what that means in the end result, but uh, but it's I believe that's the right way to go. I think so.

Brigette McGuire 53:50

I think you're heading in the right direction.

Pat Cash 53:52

I mean, in my uh you know, if I uh analyze it, okay, if one point if they like tennis and they want to play and they want to buy my book, you know, I could have in theory a a a good seller. But they're nice, they're really cool people. And and and now the young young young kids might think I'm cool, even though I'm not.

Brigette McGuire 54:09

We think you're cool, Pat, and I'm gonna buy your four books whenever free. They're they're launched, Pat. But I I want to sincerely thank you for giving your time today, your wisdom, your generosity of spirit in sharing the stories about about you as a person. But that is Pat Cash, the brand, who's an authentic champion. You know, you wear your heart on your sleeves, you're true to yourself, and you're you're generous to so many people.

Pat Cash 54:40

So well, you're a nice person. We've always had a got off great. So I was my pleasure when you got the message. I thought, oh no, how am I going to squeeze this in, but I'll do it. So it's a busy time, but I'm so happy to be here, and I hope some some people have learned something anyway.

Brigette McGuire 54:56

Pat, thank you so much for joining Love the Fan. Win the game.

Pat Cash 55:01

Thank you.